Thanks J. Tis indeed a victory for our democracy that the Met Police have now said that banning this peace march is beyond their remit. No doubt they will come under increasing pressure from an increasingly right-wing government and some 'newspapers' who are rabidly right-wing. I say all this as a proud supporter of Poppy Day/Remembrance Sunday. After all, my grandpa was gassed in the trenches, my wife's Great Uncle was killed in the little-known Macedonian campaign in WW1. We should not forget that many veterans of these conflicts opposed the subsequent erection of war memorials and threw away their war medals, because they knew the gruesome reality of war.
Hi. Interesting comments. Thanks. However, I've been astonished to hear that there has been trouble at some pro Palestinian demonstrations. In Edinburgh, an elderly poppy seller was punched and kicked as the demonstration got underway at Waverly Station. Can you say why this has happened? What issue do the demonstrators have with the poppy appeal?
If any demonstrations that are planned for remembrance day are peaceful and not close to where the remembrance events are, then I don't see an issue. But surely if there's a threat of disorder and violence then they will need to be moved, or stopped. I'm interested in your thoughts on this. Thanks.
Hi Maggie! I think my perspective is that I am astonished a group of several hundred thousand people who are rightfully appalled by extreme violence (being committed and encouraged and applauded) do NOT fall into violence.
Can I say why an individual poppy seller was punched? Of course not. I would need to know more about the situation and even then I suspect the motivation f one individual would be hard to fathom. The demonstrations have nothing to do with the poppy appeal. But just as a football match should not have anything to do with sectarian hate or church with rejecting people for their sexuality, sometimes people can be very disappointing.
I myself am not a fan of the poppy appeal, for the simple reason that it seems to have become, over the years, a 'support our troops' demonstration of nationalism/patriotism, rather than one of mourning all those lost in war and a desire to see war cease. It seems to have flipped 180 degrees from what I was taught as a boy by my grandmother, whose husband died very young as a result of heart strain brought on by 48 hours in the ocean after his Royal Navy ship was sunk in the Pacific.
That said, I neither judge nor attack those who wear the poppy. The same can not be said of broadcast bosses, pundits, national newspapers and television media in this country, so I think I am safely out of the 'bully' camp on this issue if there is one.
The protests are not going to be near the remembrance events, though I must repeat that anyone who thinks calling for peace is at odds with the Armistice celebrations may have missed the meaning of the word.
RE the threat of disorder and violence: as I think I said in the piece, there is always the possibility of this. There is a possibility with football matches. There is a possibility at closing time all over every major city every night, and usually there is some violence. We do not ban alcohol or sport, neither of which is as important as speaking out for justice.
I have been on marches where some people committed what the press called 'violence'. They broke shop windows and disrupted super-wealthy people's enjoyment of hotels and shops (while not harming any human being. When a government ignores the voice of the people and the demands of basic international law, perhaps what we should worry about is the human death toll rather than the broken windows. But I am sure you would agree with that, so please don't take that as pointed at you. I am talking about some perspective as an antidote to squeamishness about disruption and disorder. Especially when the cause of the anger, the 'riot as the language of the unheard' as MLK put it, is so urgent and intense. I would never condone attacking people observing a vigil, obviously. That would be appalling (And has been as Israel has killed mourners many times over the last weeks and shot protesters at vigils over the last years was also appalling.
When we want to talk about disruptive and unruly protests, hen we want to see them stopped, I am always reminded of the anti-Apartheid struggle in South Africa. I can understand why the Apartheid government would have wanted the marches (all of which it deemed illegal) stopped. I could understand why racists, fascists and conservatives would want it too. I never understood why anyone who opposed Apartheid would draw he line at burning barricades and breaking windows when an entire population was living with a boot on its neck.
I am not wanting to justify or encourage any violence. I think it hurts the cause in a country so ambivalent about the suffering of Muslims and Arabs. I am personally too middle class to feel comfortable around it. But we have to admit a disconnect between wanting justice from oppressors and insisting that it is asked for in a polite tone of voice.
So for me, I hope the protests go off peacefully, as they have for three weeks and hundreds of thousands of people. And I do not believe that a day meant to commemorate the importance of peace should be weaponised against a clearly righteous cause. Peaceful marches have always been the option of compromise and restraint and I think stopping them is a recipe for violence rather than an inoculation against it. If I can mix my metaphors horribly.
So those are my thoughts, I don't know if that adequately explains my personal position on these things, but I have made a (no-violent, metaphorical) stab at it!
Thanks Jonty, for your full and interesting reply. I'm a supporter of the poppy appeal and everything I've ever seen and heard about this appeal is in support of military veterans, and seeking to see peace throughout the world. I'm praying that there is no trouble at any of the remembrance events this weekend. And praying the pro-Palestinian marches are peaceful and effective. Thanks.
Thanks J. Tis indeed a victory for our democracy that the Met Police have now said that banning this peace march is beyond their remit. No doubt they will come under increasing pressure from an increasingly right-wing government and some 'newspapers' who are rabidly right-wing. I say all this as a proud supporter of Poppy Day/Remembrance Sunday. After all, my grandpa was gassed in the trenches, my wife's Great Uncle was killed in the little-known Macedonian campaign in WW1. We should not forget that many veterans of these conflicts opposed the subsequent erection of war memorials and threw away their war medals, because they knew the gruesome reality of war.
Hi. Interesting comments. Thanks. However, I've been astonished to hear that there has been trouble at some pro Palestinian demonstrations. In Edinburgh, an elderly poppy seller was punched and kicked as the demonstration got underway at Waverly Station. Can you say why this has happened? What issue do the demonstrators have with the poppy appeal?
If any demonstrations that are planned for remembrance day are peaceful and not close to where the remembrance events are, then I don't see an issue. But surely if there's a threat of disorder and violence then they will need to be moved, or stopped. I'm interested in your thoughts on this. Thanks.
Hi Maggie! I think my perspective is that I am astonished a group of several hundred thousand people who are rightfully appalled by extreme violence (being committed and encouraged and applauded) do NOT fall into violence.
Can I say why an individual poppy seller was punched? Of course not. I would need to know more about the situation and even then I suspect the motivation f one individual would be hard to fathom. The demonstrations have nothing to do with the poppy appeal. But just as a football match should not have anything to do with sectarian hate or church with rejecting people for their sexuality, sometimes people can be very disappointing.
I myself am not a fan of the poppy appeal, for the simple reason that it seems to have become, over the years, a 'support our troops' demonstration of nationalism/patriotism, rather than one of mourning all those lost in war and a desire to see war cease. It seems to have flipped 180 degrees from what I was taught as a boy by my grandmother, whose husband died very young as a result of heart strain brought on by 48 hours in the ocean after his Royal Navy ship was sunk in the Pacific.
That said, I neither judge nor attack those who wear the poppy. The same can not be said of broadcast bosses, pundits, national newspapers and television media in this country, so I think I am safely out of the 'bully' camp on this issue if there is one.
The protests are not going to be near the remembrance events, though I must repeat that anyone who thinks calling for peace is at odds with the Armistice celebrations may have missed the meaning of the word.
RE the threat of disorder and violence: as I think I said in the piece, there is always the possibility of this. There is a possibility with football matches. There is a possibility at closing time all over every major city every night, and usually there is some violence. We do not ban alcohol or sport, neither of which is as important as speaking out for justice.
I have been on marches where some people committed what the press called 'violence'. They broke shop windows and disrupted super-wealthy people's enjoyment of hotels and shops (while not harming any human being. When a government ignores the voice of the people and the demands of basic international law, perhaps what we should worry about is the human death toll rather than the broken windows. But I am sure you would agree with that, so please don't take that as pointed at you. I am talking about some perspective as an antidote to squeamishness about disruption and disorder. Especially when the cause of the anger, the 'riot as the language of the unheard' as MLK put it, is so urgent and intense. I would never condone attacking people observing a vigil, obviously. That would be appalling (And has been as Israel has killed mourners many times over the last weeks and shot protesters at vigils over the last years was also appalling.
When we want to talk about disruptive and unruly protests, hen we want to see them stopped, I am always reminded of the anti-Apartheid struggle in South Africa. I can understand why the Apartheid government would have wanted the marches (all of which it deemed illegal) stopped. I could understand why racists, fascists and conservatives would want it too. I never understood why anyone who opposed Apartheid would draw he line at burning barricades and breaking windows when an entire population was living with a boot on its neck.
I am not wanting to justify or encourage any violence. I think it hurts the cause in a country so ambivalent about the suffering of Muslims and Arabs. I am personally too middle class to feel comfortable around it. But we have to admit a disconnect between wanting justice from oppressors and insisting that it is asked for in a polite tone of voice.
So for me, I hope the protests go off peacefully, as they have for three weeks and hundreds of thousands of people. And I do not believe that a day meant to commemorate the importance of peace should be weaponised against a clearly righteous cause. Peaceful marches have always been the option of compromise and restraint and I think stopping them is a recipe for violence rather than an inoculation against it. If I can mix my metaphors horribly.
So those are my thoughts, I don't know if that adequately explains my personal position on these things, but I have made a (no-violent, metaphorical) stab at it!
Thank you for engaging in good faith!
J
Thanks Jonty, for your full and interesting reply. I'm a supporter of the poppy appeal and everything I've ever seen and heard about this appeal is in support of military veterans, and seeking to see peace throughout the world. I'm praying that there is no trouble at any of the remembrance events this weekend. And praying the pro-Palestinian marches are peaceful and effective. Thanks.