Interview PART TWO: Religious, Jewish, and critical of Israel
More from our interview with Rosamond from UK Jewish anti-Occupation group, Na'amod
If you haven’t yet, you may want to read part one of this interview with Rosamond of Na’amod, an inspiring Jewish movement in the UK that speaks out and organises against Israeli Apartheid and Occupation.
With the Christian Church’s long history of anti-Semitism, cynical exploitation of Jewish culture and history and, more recently, a wildly ambiguous ‘love’ of Israel expressed through Christian Zionism, it’s important that Christians are committed to fighting the very real evil of anti-Semitism as well as listening to Jewish voices. Particularly those voices raised in solidarity with oppressed people everywhere — including Israel.
Rosamond, who we met in the last newsletter, is not a representative of all Jewish people any more than you or I could represent all of whatever group we may belong to. But she was introduced to us by Na’amod when we asked to speak to someone who could explain a bit more of what they are about. in this second part of the interview, Rosamond addresses what Christians and the rest of us might do to stand in meaningful solidarity today, as well as questions of Jewish and Israeli safety.
We’re grateful to Rosamond and Na’amod for what they do and for being willing to talk to us about these things.
Interview part two: Rosamond of Na’amod
[Beer Christianity:] How hard is it to speak out against Israel as a Jewish person, in terms of pushback from religious community, family or friends?
[Rosamond:] This looks vastly different for each person, given the diversity of positions on Israel-Palestine in different Jewish communities. Personally, I’ve had very little pushback from my community, because my Jewish friends and wider community are generally in a similar place politically. We have our differences, and sometimes conversations can be intense, but disagreements are usually not fundamental. In fact, my biggest personal conflicts over Israel-Palestine have been with non-Jewish friends and acquaintances. I’m aware, though, that this is far from the norm for most Jewish activists, and I’m lucky that I haven’t had any major ruptures over this issue.
[BC:] Jewish people have been horrifically persecuted for centuries – a fact that played a big part in the Zionist movement. Do you feel that a Jewish State is the only or best way to provide safety for Jewish people?
[R:] As long as Israel continues to oppress Palestinians, neither Palestinians nor Israelis will be safe. This is why Na’amod takes the view that all liberation is fundamentally intertwined: we have to work for Palestinian liberation and against antisemitism hand in hand.
One of my best friends from childhood, an Orthodox Jewish woman, moved to Israel after her synagogue was firebombed, among other incidents. She and I don’t agree politically, but it’s hard to blame her on a personal level for wanting to live in safety. At the same time, her safety is predicated on the oppression of others (and, as the horrific events of October 7th showed, that illusory safety cannot hold). The way forward, then, has to begin with freedom, justice and equality for everyone under the jurisdiction of the state they live in, whatever form that might take. As a movement, Na’amod doesn’t take a position on borders or the one- versus two-state solution models, but we agree that this is a prerequisite for both Jewish and Palestinian safety and flourishing.
Personally (and I should note that I’m speaking for myself here, not for Na’amod), something that’s been transformative for my understanding of Zionism is to see it in the context of the other 19th- and 20th-century ethnonationalisms among which it developed. The nation-state is a relatively new concept, but it presents itself as a natural entity. It was only relatively recently that I learned about the enormous ethnic cleansings that took place during the formation of nation-states after the collapse of the Austro-Hungarian and Ottoman Empires, for example, because these histories have been forgotten or suppressed. This is why, rather than defining myself specifically or narrowly as an anti-Zionist, I’m opposed to ethnonationalism as a whole and see Zionism as one form of that. Jews, like many other people, have deep religious and historical ties to Israel-Palestine—but that doesn’t mean that the region needs to be or should be a nation-state.
“Rather than defining myself specifically or narrowly as an anti-Zionist, I’m opposed to ethnonationalism as a whole”
[BC:] Our audience is largely Christian, and Christians have been hugely guilty of anti-Semitism as well as a problematic religious fetishisation of Judaism and Zionism. What message would you like Christians to hear from your perspective?
[R:] The deep ties that Christians, Jews, and Muslims have to many places in Israel-Palestine are an incredible opportunity for connection, mutual respect, and shared celebration, not possessiveness and conflict. We have meaningful differences and, yes, some complicated histories that need healing, but we don’t need to give those the last word.
If you’re more removed from the situation and have Jewish, Palestinian or Israeli friends, please try to understand where they’re coming from and what experiences have led them to their perspective (and to avoid making them spokespeople for their people or government). This doesn’t mean ignoring disagreements, much less letting harmful views slide, but instead trying to understand how deeply many people are affected by this issue—first and foremost, of course, Palestinians in the region facing daily oppression and ongoing violence, but also Israelis and diaspora Palestinians and Jews.
[BC:] In broader terms, what would you want the world at large, perhaps people who are not deeply engaged with the issue of Israel-Palestine, to understand better?
[R:] If you’re not deeply engaged in this issue and feel overwhelmed with where to begin, a few organisations doing excellent work in Israel-Palestine are Standing Together, a joint Jewish-Palestinian movement; B’Tselem, an Israeli human rights organisation; and Breaking the Silence, which shares testimonies of former soldiers to oppose the IDF’s mistreatment of Palestinians. When you have more time, it’s also extremely helpful to read more about the origins and history of the conflict, beginning well before 1948, to understand the historical forces that led to this moment of unbelievable devastation. The current situation was not inevitable, and a future of continued violence and destruction doesn’t have to be either.
If nothing else, Na’amod’s fundamental belief is that nobody is free until we are all free. As intractable as this ongoing violence and oppression can seem, giving up hope is not an option we have.
Some history (on the podcast)
Ages ago, we had the privilege of having Professor Ilan Pappe on the show, discussing Israel, Palestine and history. You can hear Ilan Pappe on Beer Christianity here (that’s our old, slightly shit site, sorry) or wherever you get your podcasts. It’s Episode 44 of Beer Christianity. Here’s the episode on YouTube:
Links for you to explore
If you’ve ever worried that standing with Palestinians or speaking out against Israeli oppression is anti-Semitic, perhaps some of these groups will help put that in perspective. We all have a duty to fight anti-Semitism, and, as Rosamond reminds us, that is part of a larger fight against all oppression and ethno-nationalism, as we work for liberation for all. Check these good people out:
Na’amod — Okay we love them. And not just because Rosamond is part of their crew and she’s clearly great. Follow Na’amod on Insta, they post good, inspiring, helpful stuff.
Jewish Voice for Peace — Very active, doing good demonstrations especially in the States. Follow Jewish Voice for Peace on Insta for great updates on Jewish solidarity with Palestinians.
Breaking the Silence — Former Israeli soldiers break the silence on what they were asked to do in the Occupied Palestinian Territories, Gaza and beyond. Fist hand accounts of how Israel operates, that have often come at personal cost to those speaking. Follow them here.
B’Tselem — An Israeli human rights group with a great deal of respect, globally. Subscribe to B’Tselem’s newsletter here.
[As with all recommendations and links, Beer Christianity cannot vouch for everything every person associated with every one of these groups has ever said or done (and that’s the kind of thing that gets weaponised by pro-Israel activists often, so it’s important to make that clear). We just like what they are doing and how they do it generally. Don’t like ‘em? Don’t support ‘em. But we think they are worth exploring.]
The end bit
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The end end bit.
Hey. All the way here at the end. You legend. I hope you found this issue helpful and that it encourages you to speak out in your church, your workplace, your friend group or family, challenging some of the bullshit that is out there trying to demonise all support for Palestine as anti-Semitic. These things can cost us, but I think, when we look back, we will be glad we spoke out for justice. Please keep praying for Palestine, for an end to the suffering, for safety for civilians and for the return of hostages on both sides. Pray for justice and for peace. And for miraculous changes of heart where they are needed most. Have a nice day, friend. I hope you’re okay. J